Q&A Dense or Gummy Crumb

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Q: The crumb of my bread is dense, with small holes, and sometimes there are dense areas in the bottom half of the slices. How do I fix this?

A: First, be aware that our expectations for bread’s texture are shaped by our experience with commercial bread, a product that is made with dough conditioners and other additives that keep the loaves very soft. Homemade bread made from stored high-moisture dough is denser and more toothsome than commercial white bread. But there are several things that can help you to achieve a crumb with a more open hole structure:

1. For white-flour recipes, are you using something other than U.S. all-purpose flour? If so, check this page for water adjustments.

2.  Make sure that your dough is not too wet or too dry, both extremes will result in a dense crumb. You can check to see if you are using the right amount of water for the type of flour you use (click here to check).  And make sure you are measuring using the scoop-and-sweep method, click here for a video of that.

3.  Be gentle! Once you determine that your dough is the right consistency then make sure you are handling it very gently. I find that people tend to want to knead the dough, even a little. This knocks the gas out of the dough and will give you a dense crumb. When shaping the dough be very careful to leave as much of the air bubbles in tact as possible. These bubbles will create the holes in the bread. We say to shape the dough for about 30-60 seconds, but we’ve come to think that even that is too long. Try getting it down to 2-40 seconds.

4. Try a longer rest after shaping: In my first book (Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day–2007), I opted for a very short rest time, usually 40 minutes for one-pound loaves made mostly with white flour.  For most readers, that was enough to prevent dense results.  But others found this to be a little dense, especially if your kitchen is cooler than 68 degrees.  Try 60, or even 90 minutes for white-flour loaves, and see what you think.   Whole grain loaves almost always need a 90 minute rest.

5.  Longer-stored doughs may be best for flatbread: If you are using a dough that is close to 2 weeks old or older, you may want to stick to pizza, pita, naan or another option from the flat bread chapters in the books, or from my pizza and flatbread book.  The yeast will not have its full power and if baked as a high loaf it may come out denser than you want.

6.  Check your oven temperature:  Use something like this thermometer on Amazon; if your oven’s off, you won’t get proper “oven spring” and the loaf can be dense.

The “refrigerator rise” trick is convenient and results in a nice open crumb:

It’s also super-convenient, allowing you to shape your dough and then have it rise in the refrigerator for 8 to 14 hours before baking. This is what you do:

1. If you want fresh dinnertime bread or rolls, then first thing in the morning cut off a piece of dough and shape it as normal. Place the dough on a sheet of parchment, loosely wrap with plastic and put it back in the refrigerator.   If you want to bake first thing in the morning, shape and refrigerate at bedtime.

2. Eight to fourteen hours later, the loaves or rolls may have spread slightly, and may not seem to have risen at all. Don’t panic, they will still have great oven spring! Because you don’t handle the dough at all after the refrigerator rise the bubbles in the dough should still be intact. Preheat your oven with a stone on the middle rack to 475 degrees. When the oven is nice and hot take out your cold dough, slash it as normal and bake per recipe directions. Allow to cool and serve.

More in The New Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day, and my other books.

Note: BreadIn5.com is reader supported. When you buy through links on the site, BreadIn5 LLC earns commissions.

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702 thoughts to “Q&A Dense or Gummy Crumb”

  1. Love the book, have been working with it for a year, and have given it several times as gifts. Have made several of the varieties to great success. Am looking forward to your whole grain book!

    Here’s my question and stumbling block: I’m having a tough time baking the master recipe after freezing/defrosting. I usually halve the master recipe, make and bake a loaf immediately, and then freeze the remaining portion for baking. That first loaf turns out fine, although I do have to bake it for 35 min in my oven (and I have checked the temp; The Taylor Gourmet thermometer says it is at 450). I am using a stone on the middle rack and am using the broiler pan with steam.

    But when I defrost the dough and bake it 35 min at 450, I end up with a gummy loaf inside, although deep brown outside. It’s almost unedible at that crumb, although my husband still toasts it and eats it.

    All rising times are the 1 hr 40 min you recently recommended right now (in the warmest part of the house, which is about 69F in our Mpls winter)

    Any thoughts?

  2. Hi Nina,

    Yes, you still want to bake the bread for 30 minutes even if you bake at 475°F. The dough is starting out cold and so you need the time to make sure it is baked through.

    The dough can over rise. It is called over-proofing the dough. What happens is the gas bubbles from the yeast get too big, they have no more growing power for the oven and they end up collapsing. It produces a dense bread.

    When rising on the counter, your dough is ready when it no longer feels chilled and has a bit of a bloated feeling when touched.

    Yes, you can do a refrigerator rise with a loaf pan. I do it all the time and love it! bake as normal!

    Thanks and enjoy the bread!

    Zoë

  3. Hi Kristen,

    How long has it been frozen? Do you leave the dough in the refrigerator overnight to defrost and then shape the loaf?

    When the loaf goes in the oven does it still feel chilled and dense? It should feel a little puffy and no longer chilled.

    Let me know and we will figure this out!

    Thank you! Zoë

  4. Thanks Zoe – when you say regarding refrigerator rise in a loaf pan “bake it as normal”…. do you mean 450 or 475 degrees????

    Is the general rule, all refrigerator rise is baked at 475 degrees?

  5. Hi Nina,

    It somewhat depends on the size of the loaf and the type of dough. I like to fill my loaf pan 3/4 full and let them bake longer. I’d go with 450°F and bake for 35-40 minutes, depending on the size of your loaf.

    Zoë

  6. Hi Zoe:

    In the most recent case, the loaf had been frozen for about a week. I do leave the dough to defrost overnight in the fridge and shape it the next day prior to resting for baking.

    When the 1 hr 40 min passes, the dough is no longer chilled and seems a little puffy, although not risen as high as if the dough had been fresh.

    FYI I’m using the Gold Medal Unbleached all purpose flour with the water measurement called for in the recipe.

    Thanks for your thoughts!

  7. Hi Kristen,

    If you are doing a 1# loaf I suspect that your dough is over proofing in 1 hr 40 min. Try letting it rest only 60 minutes and bake.

    Let me know if this works out!

    Thanks, Zoë

  8. Love the crust of the breads I’ve made, but my free-form loaves are wide and not very tall. They spread out during the rise period (anywhere from 40-90 mins). Seemed to do a little better when I set the ball in the microwave to rise (not turned on, of course!). Plus, I get the tiny holes in the bread. What am I doing wrong? My cloaking takes about 15 secs. Could it be my very chilly kitchen (around 60 F)? Thanks for your help!

    By the way, discovered your book from many rave reviews on the Pickle list (from Mark Lipinski’s Quilter’s Home magazine). I think that group helped sell dozens of copies of your book!

    Bonnie in Snohomish, WA

  9. Bonnie: Chilly kitchen may be increasing your rise time, giving the dough a chance to spread.

    You may prefer loaf pan breads (can’t spread), or the perforated baguette pans, which make for great crust but contain spreading: https://tinyurl.com/d9z63p

  10. Hi! I have made 1 batch of the buttermilk bread. It was great fresh from the oven. The next 2 loaves I baked at the same time. The loaves seemed dry. I did use powdered buttermilk. I baked in the loaf pan as directed for 45 minutes. Should I cut the baking time and/or use boiling water in the oven? Thanks!

  11. Hi Christy,

    If the bread seems too dry you can try baking it for slightly less time. Did the dough seem dry as well? If so, you may want to add another few tablespoons water to the dough. I’ve never used powdered buttermilk, but I imagine that if you added the proper amount of hydration to it there should be no difference.

    Adding steam to the oven will do nothing but give you a crisp crust to your bread. With a dough like this the crust will only soften again anyway, so I’d skip it.

    I hope this helps! Zoë

  12. Thank you for your prompt reply! I will try decreasing my baking time. The dough was not dry, it was easy to handle. I did make cinnamon rolls last night using the buttermilk dough and baked them this morning. The family loved them! Thanks again!

  13. Has anyone tried a clay pot with inside enameled?
    If I soak the pot should I still need a
    steaming tray?
    Pot instructions say to put into a cold over ..
    will this work?
    Yum ……. I’ve got bread baking right now!!

    1. Hi Tom,

      I’ve not tried the clay pots with the enameled inside. I have baked with the Dutch Oven which has the same interior and it works beautifully. Here is how I did it. https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=552

      I would follow the instructions of that came with your clay pot. You want to allow the clay pot to preheat with the oven, just like you would a baking stone. You do NOT need to add additional steam to any closed vessel. The bread dough produces its own steam when in a closed pot like yours.

      Thanks and enjoy all the bread! Zoë

  14. Thanks for your quick response to my other post. This post definitely has some great suggestions however, I think our problem is slightly different.

    The first loaf we bake is excellent. Phenomenal. BUT if we refridgerate the dough at all we end up with a dense crumb and tough crust.

    Should we expect the dough to rise the second time? It seems to just stay flat regardless of how long the second rest is after we take it out of the fridge.

    Thanks!
    Rachel

    1. Hi Rachel,

      The dough will not rise much, if at all, during the second rest. It may spread sideways slightly, but it should have a wonderful oven spring and rise considerably in the oven. Is that happening?

      You mentioned that it stays flat (which is normal for our dough) regardless of how long you let it rest. How long would you say that is? Any longer than 90 minutes for a 1 pound loaf and you may be experiencing “over proofing,” which means the yeast has done all that it can before ever hitting the oven and will collapse instead of rising well. This may occur if your kitchen is particularly warm as well.

      We’ll figure this out! Thank you for staying in touch.

      Zoë

  15. Hi,

    Please don’t laugh at this question. I love the fact that you tell us how big the dough should be (orange, grapefruit, etc.), when starting. Do you have any way of doing that for flatbreads, naan, etc? Short of pulling out a ruler, I’m having trouble with 1/16″ dough, 1/2″ dough, etc. As a result, my flatbread was too thick, my pita too thin, etc. I may have an eye/dough coordination problem or something. But, any advice would be appreciated. Hmmm, maybe I should use a ruler? BTW, everything still tastes great but it’s not always what it should be. BTW2, I made the bran enriched bread and substituted a cup of WW flour for the white (and added 1T of gluten and a bit more water) and it was really good. (anyone interested: the fiber content for 12 slices was 5.1 a slice) I may try substituting 2 cups next time. Can’t wait for the next book.

    Regards,

    Suzan

    1. Suzan: Not laughing…

      Short of pulling out a ruler, there’s really no way to know exactly how thin you’ve rolled the dough. Once you get experienced with it, you won’t need it, but for now, it’s a reasonable thing to do. Take a look at our hints also– on vital wheat gluten in whole grain breads: https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142

  16. OK, I tried the refrigerator method. Shaped the boule quickly last night, put on parchment, covered lightly with plastic wrap, baked at 475 degrees this morning. The loaf looks lovely….BUT after cooling, I sliced it right down the middle, and the crumb is STILL dense. I don’t think there is a hole in it larger than 1/4 inch.

    1. Hi Mary,

      If your dough is still too dense then I’d try letting it sit on the counter for a longer time. You can combine it with the refrigerator rise as well. Your dough is really safe to sit out on the counter for up to 90 minutes, without over proofing.

      If you find the size of the loaf you have taken from the bucket is too small, just cut another piece and tuck it up into the bottom of the initial piece. The dough is so wet that it will just essentially melt into one another.

      Have you taken a look at one of our videos to make sure that the consistency of your dough is not too dry or too wet, which will also make for a dense crumb? Some people find it very helpful to have the visual cue. https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?page_id=63

      Thanks, Zoë

  17. Another issue for me. When I grab dough from the bucket and try to get that grapefruit size, I always find that it looks like the right amount until I cut it off, then it’s too small. I don’t want to grab another smaller amount and add to it, so I end up with a loaf that is smaller than I would like. Any suggestions?

  18. Hi, just in case you never tire hearing how amazing your book is, I thought I’d write. Reserved your book at the library (been disappointed too many times to purchase them sight unseen). Made my first batch…my husband and three kids refused to believe that the bread was indeed from scratch, made by me! It is now to the point where I feel guilty if I don’t make bread every day! What a glorious treat (and, it is absolutely insane how easy it is). Have now purchased my very own copy, and I just want to say THANKS. I hope my kids have fond memories of walking into the house after school with the smell of freshly baked bread greating them (almost) every day.

  19. Hi,
    I would like to say we love the first batch of bread that I made. The problem is the second batch…. What happens if for the initial rise (which I know is supposed to be 2 hours) the dough is left out for longer… say 10 hours. I’m not sure what to do with this dough, I would hate to have to throw it away. –This is what happens when you leave my husband in charge of making bread.

    Thanks,
    Becky

    1. Becky: Usually we’ve found that you can get away with a very long first rise. Give it a shot with some loaves. Don’t make huge ones, should be OK. I’ve done this accidentally many times. Jeff

  20. I love your method of making bread and the deli rye bread is my favorite – so much so that I haven’t tried too many others! One problem I have after the first loaf is that it remains a litle too dense at the very bottom of the loaf. I am doing a very quick shaping so I don’t think it is overhandled. Does it need to rise a bit more than the 40 minutes or should I try the refrigerator rise?
    Thaks so much,
    Marcia

    1. Marcia: I think you’re going to be happier with the longer rest— try 60, or even up to 90 min and see if it’s better. Refrigerator-rise trick if that doesn’t help.

      If neither of them help, a little vital wheat gluten could do the trick (https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142) but then may also need a little more water.

      Any chance you are using “bleached” as your white flour in this recipe? If so, switch to unbleached and see if that helps. Jeff

  21. I am using King Arthur unbleached white and Hodgkins Mills rye. I’ll try the longer rise and see how it goes. I think there is enough water.
    Thanks,
    Marcia

  22. What happens if your dough comes out a little wet? What can I do? I used Con Agra Harvest mills hotel and restaurant all purpose white flour.

    1. Hi Vanessa,

      The flour you are using is actually fairly high in protein which would result in a dry dough, not typically wet. Here are some videos of our doughs, does it look considerably wet than this? https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?page_id=63 (look at the videos for ABin5).

      Our dough is wetter than typical doughs, but if you determine that it is too wet you can just add more flour. After you add more flour you just need to let the dough rest for a while to allow the flour to absorb the water.

      Thanks, Zoë

  23. I have become a complete fan of your book ABin5. Thanks so much for writing it. I made bread and brought it in to work…they think I am a culinary genius now! Several of the girls have ordered the book.
    I have 2 questions;
    1) Is better to use the round storage canister in the fridge, or is the rectangular one ok? I’ve been using the rectangular one, and it seems ok, still rises fine, etc.
    2) What is the best Sourdough starter to purchase? I don’t want to make my own and mess it up and not have good bread. I’d rather use one that is really good.
    Thanks very much!
    — Laura M

    1. LauraM: Rectangular is fine; I prefer round only because I find them easier to mix the dough in. You don’t get ingredients gathering in the corners because there are no corners!

      I never purchase sourdough starter– have to admit that I find them odd-tasting, most so-called “San-Francisco” sourdough bread has that same inauthentic taste because that’s what they use. I do in fact make my own occasionally and love it– but frankly don’t usually have the time to mess with it. Jeff

  24. I have been using your techniques based on both of your books for about two months. The idea is really fun to try out. I have my favorite recipes and am having a lot of fun trying others. The biggest problem I have is with the crust being tough…there is no way that it would be described as crisp. I’ve experimented with some tips I have read, tried to watch the oven temp. The best tip so far is the use of the spray bottle for increasing the moisture during baking. BUT that means I am using a pan with water on another shelf and spraying 4-6 times during the baking process. This helps some. Is the tough crust most likely caused by high temperature or caused by not enough moisture? Thanks for your help.

  25. As a first time user of your great recipe I noticed on the video that you use honey etc. instead of sugar but nowhere in the recipe there is a sweetener.
    Thank you for helping me to make wholesome bread. You truly are my saviors.

    1. Irene: Not sure which video you mean. We use honey as a sweetener in many cases (challah, brioche, others), but not the basic lean doughs such as the Master Recipe from either of the books. We were probably referring to recipes you haven’t seen. Jeff

  26. Thank you Jeff, you answered my question: No sweetener in the Master Recipe or basic lean doughs. I was under the impression that a sweetener is needed in the presence of yeast.
    I am looking forward to explore more of your recipes. Irene

  27. I just wanted to say thanks! My sister introduced me to your book over a year ago. I’ve been making bread this way ever since. Anyway, I never thought of looking at your website for tips and hints. But I was snooping at this thread and I learned so much. I moved from Michigan to North Dakota in July and I noticed my bread seemed more dense… Well thanks to this I found out it was the flour not me! Thanks again for a pair of amazing books…can’t wait for the next!

  28. Thanks for the refrigerator rise tip. For convenience, I tried the overnight rise with my last 3 loaves. And I get terrific oven spring this way. (2 months ago I didn’t even know what that term meant!) The bread is rises much higher. Wonder why I don’t get the same with a counter-top 90 minute rise? (My kitchen is about 64 degrees in winter.)

    1. Hi Zorra,

      I’m so glad you are getting great results with the refrigerator rise. If you do the counter rise you may need more time if your kitchen is on the cool side. You could try giving it an additional 15-30 minutes and see if that helps, but if you are getting good results why change a thing? 😉

      Thanks, Zoë

  29. Thanks Zoe! I read through this entire link you ent me via Twitter and found that I have some adjustments I can try! Thankfully my family loves the bread… even when it is dense. I’ll make some notes in my ABI5!
    Jen
    @greenishmama

    1. Hi Jen,

      I’m so glad that it has been helpful. Please stay in touch and let me know how it goes. I’m happy to help if you are still having issues.

      Thanks, Zoë

  30. It is blizzarding here in New Jersey…sitting looking at the back yard with fresh baked rolls and hot coffee is a little bit of heaven. Thank you, thank you for this wonderful technique! Bread baking always seemed like such a hassle before, and I’ve never had great results before, either. Now, out to shovel….

  31. I enjoy reading your comments which are very helpful.
    I have a bag of Gluten Flour from high protein wheat and I wonder how I may use it in your Whole Grain Artisan Loaf recipe.
    Thank you for your kind response, Irene

  32. Hi Zoe,

    I just bought the book and within short order I produced the exact type of bread my wife and I have been searching for. I used 10oz of my sourdough starter as a base then backed 5oz each off the flour and water from the master recipe. I’ve been trying everything in a 6qt container but hope to move up to a 12qt once I get it exactly right.

    The problem I’m having is that after the first loaf the dough forms a hard shell and is much less supple for additional loaves. I cover the top with flour as shown in the videos and I think the residual flour might be the problem. I just assumed the dough would return to a wet form kind of like my sourdough starters do, but no luck.

    Should I maybe leave it out on the counter at room temp for a while after I pull out a loaf?

    1. Hi Ben,

      You just want to dust the surface of the dough with enough flour to get the dough out of the bucket without it sticking to your hands. It sounds like maybe you are putting so much on that it is not getting absorbed into the dough. Try using less flour and be sure to cover the bucket well, but not quite airtight. I usually poke a small hole in the top of my bucket and then snap the lid shut. This will prevent that skin from forming.

      Enjoy! Zoë

  33. Hi Zoe and Jeff,

    I have made 2 half batches of your Semolina recipe. I really love the ease and convenience of your method, and I can see myself regularly making bread this way.

    I do have a question, though. Why not knead the dough more during the first mix? My impression is that you want to keep the recipe easy and not require much equipment, which is great. And I know that hand kneading is work, while machine kneading requires equipment.

    However, for my second batch I accidentally kneaded the dough in my Cuisinart for over a minute. The dough was stretchy as a resistance band at the gym. It rose like a rocket, quadrupling in 80 minutes. I didn’t know what to do, so I folded it gently down to about double the original volume. The texture of the resulting loaf (after a day or 2 in the fridge) was just what I’m after, with a softer crumb and loftier rise than the no-knead batch. The loaves made a few days later were IMO perfect, with custard crumb, some big holes, balanced between soft and chewy. Whereas the first, unkneaded batch was good, but more chewy and not as lofty as I would like.

    There were a couple other changes to the second batch. The first batch was chewier than I’m looking for (like a typical grocery store ciabatta), so instead of half bread, half AP, for the second batch I used all AP (for the white flour part, the semolina remained the same). And I used Oetker yeast instead of SAF Perfect Rise. (I do think the Oetker is exceptionally vigourous, because another standard-method bread recipe I made with it, Silver Palate’s Semolina, also rose like a rocket.)

    Obviously, since I already have the Cuisinart, it’s just as easy to knead it (75 s) as it is to just mix it (10-15 s). Do you think the kneading was responsible for the softer, loftier crumb? What do you think of initially kneading the dough in general?

    Being kind of obsessive, I also plan to make a couple other semolina bread recipes with the poolish/preferment method and fine patent durum flour, which I had to order online. But my kneaded batch of your recipe was so perfect and wonderful, I can’t imagine anything else turning out better.

    1. Susan: You can knead, but you MUST do it before the initial rise, as you specify. If you do it after, you won’t be able to store the dough for long– all the gas gets knocked out of it.

      It’s not absolutely necessary, but since you prefer the result, go with it. I was wondering when someone would ask this question! Jeff

  34. Greetings from 7,000′

    I have been experimenting with your recipes, following suggestions for higher elevations, and I am still struggling. I made a batch last night, reduced flour, added a little extra vital wheat gluten, and used cool water, as suggested. I was not clear whether to leave the batch out for 2 hours or just allow a long, slow rise in the refrigerator; opted for the latter. Little to no rise 18+ hours later. I am now baking a loaf and will see if I get any “oven spring.”

    Would love to hear from others at higher elevations to find what has worked for them.

    Thank you.

    Barb

    1. Hi Barb,

      Did you also reduce the amount of yeast? You can try letting the dough rest on the counter and see if that activates the yeast a bit more. I hope that others will comment on your dough.

      Thanks, Zoë

  35. Hi! Just made the healthy master recipe and it’s a bit dense. I’m pretty sure my dough wasn’t wet enough. Is there anything I can do to my remaining dough or do I just need to eat it up so I can try it again? 🙂

    I love how easy it was.
    Thanks!
    Becky

    1. Becky: I have occasionally floated some water on top of too-dry dough and it seems to absorb overnight. Don’t work it in; that knocks the gas out. Jeff

  36. Thanks Jeff. Well, now I’m not so sure. I made another batch kneading at the outset, and the first loaf I just baked from it was a bit dense. It’s interesting how time, temperature, and handling have big effects on the texture. I didn’t give this one as long to rise before baking, hoping oven spring would take care of it. The good thing is, that even though it has been hard to consistently get the ideal, every loaf is still delicious and gets demolished immediately.

    1. Hi Susan,

      Allowing the dough a longer rise will give you a more open crumb, especially if you have a dough that was well kneaded. Glad you are enjoying all the various loaves.

      happy baking and continue to let us know when you get that ideal loaf, Zoë

  37. I was in recent les gourmettes class. I made the basic wheat loaf. 1st loaf was very dense. After reading comments I opted for a refrig rise and did so for 9 hours. The oven spring was fantastic but still dense–though a bit better. I baked in a cast iron casserole at 450 for 40 minutes. With an instant thermometer the temp was 200 when removed from the oven. In addition to being a fairly dense crumb it was sort of gummy and kind of rubbery inside the loaf.

    My handling is way less than 60 secs.

    Another issue I have is when I grab a handful from the bucket there are no “strands” to cut–I grab a handful and that is just what I get. My very first loaf did have long strands to cut. All loaves have been gummy but density was slightly improved with the refrig rise.

    Also I wonder if after the refrig rise should I slash and place directly in pre heated cast iron and into the oven OR should I remove from the refrig and allow to rest at room temp before baking. In comments here I read one thing and I believe there is the other in your book.

    I will master this because I love the concept and the wonderful crust.

    thanks, anne

    1. Hi Anne,

      Thank you for coming to bake with us at Barbara’s kitchen in Phoenix! I’m so glad you are trying the bread and we will help you to get a loaf that you love.

      I’m not sure which session you were in, but in the morning class we talked about how dry Phoenix is and how that may mean that the flour you use absorbs more water. This means that you may have to add more water to the dough to get a nice stretch to your dough. If your refrigerator is particularly cold you may need to let the dough warm up a bit before you will have that stretch as well. If this is the case you may be better off leaving the formed loaf, that has rested in the refrigerator, on the counter while your oven preheats just to allow it to soften up a bit.

      Be sure that you are letting the loaf cool completely before cutting into it or you will have a gummy interior. Cooling the loaf sets the interior crumb.

      I hope this helps and enjoy the bread!

      Thanks, Zoë

  38. Zoe–wow your quick reply is fantastic and so helpful. I admit I have been guilty of cutting into a warm loaf but this last time it definitely cooled–90 mim. Could it be gummy and rubbery and still need more water. I was in the morning class.
    anne

    1. Anne: It’s unlikely to be gummy/rubbery but have inadequate water as an explanation for problems your finding. See what happens when you let the loaves completely cool, don’t change anything else for the moment. Jeff

  39. Just read the book and started making the master recipe. Great book!
    On my third batch now, the loaves seem quite small – much smaller than I expected. The quantity I arrive at seems to produce four ‘navel orange-size’ not grapefruit size. Is my dough not rising enough and produce the right volume? I must be doing something wrong getting all these small (but tasty) loaves. My end product is not too much larger than a very large hamburger bun. I’m wondering also if the loaves can be baked in multiples or just single loaves. The previous question might be obvious but not to an inexperienced bread baker like me.
    Thanks.

    1. Jim: The Master recipe from our 1st book produces 3.6 pounds of dough, so each loaf is less than a pound. Just use more for each loaf, and consider doubling the batch size, and I think you’ll be happier. Jeff

  40. Hi, I’ve been baking with AB5 for about a year and HB5 since my husband gave me the book for my birthday last Nov. We love the flavors of so many of the recipes in both books and the extras on the website.

    My problem is that the bread is flat. I’ve experimented with adding water, and subtracting it from the basic recipe. I’ve gone from store brand to King Arthur flour. I’ve got an oven thermometer and have used it.

    Tonight I’ve got a very flat loaf of the HB5 master recipe in the oven and think I might have found the problem. My oven heats to 450, but after baking for 20 min. I happened to check the temp and it was down at 375. My oven does seal quite well and I’m wondering if it might be that the steam is pulling the temp down too far for too long to get good oven spring. Would I be better with less water?

    I love the crust, but something more than 2 inches high would be good for sandwiches . Thanks for any advice.

    Martha

    1. Martha: The steam itself should do that; I wonder what’s happening with the oven. Maybe the cool temp is decreasing oven spring? Maybe you’re not doing enough “gluten-cloaking,” forming a “skin” around the loaf as you form it.

      But honestly, I think you’ll be happier with loaves made in a loaf pan, or in a small-ish cast iron pot (https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=552). These contain sideways spread, which is what you’re describing. Jeff

  41. Thanks, I’ll try more flour for the cloaking. I saw above where you suggested a small bowl of flour to get enough on the forming loaf. I’ve done the loaf pans, and they work well enough, but the crust isn’t the same.

  42. I’m new at baking bread and spent the whole weekend reading your newest book. Can you tell me what is the difference between vital wheat gluten and wheat gluten. I notice at the coop that I shop at they have a bin with wheat gluten but the only vital wheat gluten is the packaged kind from Hodgson Mill.

    1. Hi Nancy,

      You can use products that are labeled vital wheat gluten, wheat gluten or wheat gluten flour interchangeably.

      Hope that helps! Zoë

  43. I am very eager to make this method work, because it completely fits my lifestyle, but I am having a problem. I am not gettting any over spring resulting in a very dense crumb. The flavor is fantastic, and the crust is amazing, but the bread is very heavy. Any thoughts as to why? The dough does seem very wet, but I am following the recipe exactly, and it is suppose to be wetter than normal, correct?

    1. Hi Jane,

      Which bread from what book are you baking, ABin5 or HBin5? The various breads have such different personalities, if we know which bread we can help you better.

      Thank you, Zoë

  44. Hi Zoe, Its Carole, from Australia here. I met you in St Paul at Annie’s house where you were showing us some of the baking techniques.
    I’ve been practicing with the bread here and having only partial success. I’m doing the whole wheat version and my loaves are very dense with almost no oven spring. Last night I put a loaf in the fridge and am currently resting it prior to baking. Dough seems very wet and just seems to spread out and doesn’t require cutting when I take the piece from the batch. I’m really after a sandwich style loaf so am using the pan. Should I use a different recipe to gain better results or can the whole wheat recipe work in a pan? If you have any other suggestions I would like to know – I suspect my flours differ from yours somewhat but I am adding the gluten flour and using the metric weight conversions in the book.
    I am determined to get this to work because even though I was really jetlagged when we met, I was really impressed and inspired by your ideas. Thanks. Carole!

    1. Carole: I’m pretty convinced that some or all of the flours you’re using are lower in protein than ours, or it’s a measurement error of some sort. The easiest way to fix this would be to dry out the dough in subsequent batches, assuming you can’t get higher-protein flours. Just use less water until it looks like what we have in our videos, and see what you think. Jeff

  45. the last two batches of bread I’ve made (standard challah, and oatmeal bread)have not developed gluten strands. They rise normally on the counter, then fall in the fridge; when I take themout to grab a portion of dough, it is like biscuit dough–no gluten strands at all. A heavy fermented odor comes from the dough.

    Help!

    1. Hi Sue,

      This sometimes happens to me when I take dough out of my basement refrigerator, which runs colder than my kitchen fridge. When the dough is very cold it loses some of its stretch. It could just be a matter of temperature, so try leaving it on the counter for 15 minutes and see if the stretch returns. If not, then it could be that your dough is too dry and you need to add a couple more tablespoons of water to the batch.

      The fermented odor is usually because the dough has been covered too tightly and the gases from the yeast can’t escape. Check out the hole I put in my bucket lid in this post https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=1616

      Thanks, Zoë

  46. Zoe-

    I tried the master recipe for the Boule twice, then tried a whole wheat, but I can’t remember which one. It did have some all purpose flour in it, so it wasn’t the 100% whole wheat. The whole wheat was denser than the boule, but neither was light and fluffy.

    1. Hi Jane,

      Here is a post I recently did on baking the “master boule recipe” from our first book, which may be very helpful in getting a lighter loaf: https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=1616.

      If you are baking whole wheat bread from our first book it may be helpful to either let it rest longer before baking. The dough should no longer feel cold and dense when it goes in the oven. Here is a video of how to form the loaf, which can sometimes be the issue with a dense loaf: https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=1632

      You may also want to try a loaf that has some vital wheat gluten in it to give a little more rise and stretch to the dough. Here is a recipe to try if you don’t already have our second book: https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=1087

      I hope this helps! Zoë

  47. Zoe:
    I do leave the lid well ajar, and try to make sure the dough is moist enough, very sticky to touch. It’ll try measuring more carefully, and yes, the dough both times was straight out of the refigerator, although that hasn’t been a problem in the past.

    I’ll give it another go!

  48. Can I reduce the sugar in the Montreal Bagels in your first book? They taste sweeter than I remember, and I’d like to cut it back a bit.

    Thank you!

    I haven’t bought bread since I got your book, over a year ago.

  49. I just took out my first boule. It didn’t expand as much as I thought it would once in the oven. I wonder if the fact that I used cold yeast has anything to do with it? I might have kneaded unwittingly as well…which of the two would affect it more?

    Thanks, Franceska

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