Q&A Whole Grain Breads

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Q: When I make the 100% whole wheat bread it doesn’t seem to rise as well as the other doughs, am I doing something wrong?

A: The short answer is no! It is nothing you are doing wrong, it is just the nature of whole wheat flour. Because there is so much bran and natural oil in the flour it is impossible to get enough gluten development to achieve a really good rise on the bread.

To get a higher sandwich loaf, we tend to overfill the loaf pan and let it rise for longer. If you go about 3/4 full and allow the dough to rise for about 2 to 2 1/2 hours depending on the size of the pan, you’ll get a taller loaf. The whole wheat loaves in The New Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day will do well with this approach.

Another way to get more rise in the bread is to add “vital wheat gluten” (also known as “vital wheat gluten flour,” to the dough. If you whisk in 1 to 2 teaspoons per cup of dry grain ingredient you will have a much higher, lighter loaf of bread. It also contains vitamin C which helps to improve the dough and make it more elastic.  But you’ll need to increase the water in the recipe to adjust for the extra protein; that’s the kind of recipe testing we did for The New Healthy Bread in Five Minutes a Day.

“Vital wheat gluten” products are available from Bob’s Red Mill and Hodgson Mill. Both products are often in the baking section of typical supermarkets.

Q: My whole wheat loaf doesn’t get a good crisp crust! What can I do?

A: The naturally occurring oils in the flour, plus the added oil in the recipe will prevent this bread from ever getting a really crackly crust. You can bake the bread with steam to help with the crust, but it will eventually get soft again. If you want a bread with a crisp crust you will want to look for recipes with mostly white flour and no added oils.

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484 thoughts to “Q&A Whole Grain Breads”

  1. Hi Patti,

    My first thought was that the dough was over-proofed, which means it had risen all it wanted to before it ever got in the oven. This may be the case if it was rising for that long in a very warm spot.

    We did the same thing in class tonight of putting the loaf pan on the stove, over a warm oven, but we only let it rise for about 1 hour. A good rule of thumb is that it is ready to bake when the dough no longer feels chilled.

    With our dough it will not double in size while resting like a traditional recipe.

    All of the flour that you are using sounds just great. I have to check out the protein content of the Hudson Cream, but if you have used it successfully in the other recipes than it is probably just fine for this recipe as well.

    I also think your long loaf pan will work just wonderfully!

    I hope this helps! Let me know.

    Zoë

  2. I’ll try for shorter resting time and let you know how it goes. This is our favorite of the whole grain breads so far, so I will keep trying! I don’t give up easily — ha!

    I checked the protein amount on the bag, 1/4 cup (30g) has 3g protein. That’s pretty standard for all purpose flour, and like you said, it’s works fine in all the other recipes I’ve tried from your book.

    One last question and I’ll leave you alone for awhile. Is the steaming in the oven step necessary for this breadmaking process, or is it to mainly to give a crusty crust?

    Thanks so much!
    Patti

  3. Hi Patti,

    The steam makes a crusty, shiny crust and isn’t necessary for this loaf. In fact we brushed ours with egg wash and dusted it with cardamom sugar. Tasty, but a sweeter finish than you may want???

    Enjoy! Zoë

  4. One more thing…
    If possible, could you post a picture on the blog of your finished Oatmeal Bread when you get a chance? I don’t recall seeing many here of one’s you’ve baked in a loaf pan. A picture would be most helpful!

    Thanks!
    Patti

  5. Hi Patti,

    It is gorgeous!!! Thank you so much for sending the picture. I’m so pleased it worked this time.

    I just used the last of my pumpkin puree to make a cheesecake.

    Enjoy! Zoë

  6. You say to add one teaspoon of gluten for each cup of wheat flour. Is that a typo? I picked up some wheat gluten and it says to use one tablespoon. I followed your link to the King Arthur gluten and it says the same thing.

    thanks!

  7. I’ve got my book on order but want to get started before it gets here! I want to make a sandwich loaf that is at least partial whole wheat. From looking at your master recipe in the NY Times and reading on this site, I’m planning as follows:

    exchange 1/3 of the flour in the master with whole wheat

    use king arthur bread flour for the other 2/3rds (this is what I have around)

    add 1 tbsp of vital wheat gluten to the mix to make up for the whole wheat

    add an extra 1/3 cup water to make up for the bread flour (instead of AP flour)

    forego the water/steam and just bake at 450 for about 30 minutes

    Does this sound right?

    When you suggest above to let the sandwich loaf rise for 2 to 2 1/2 hours when using whole wheat, is this the second rise (in the pan)? In other words, 2.5 hours instead of 40 minutes?

    Finally, for a full loaf pan (i.e. 9x5x3″), I’m guessing I’ll need nearly half the recipe instead of a quarter?

    Thanks! Can’t wait for the book to arrive.

  8. Ben: Mystery solved, thanks for visiting.

    It’s not a typo, we really meant 1 teaspoon of VWG per cup of flour in the recipe. The KAF website says to use 1 tablespoon, but notice that they don’t say “per cup of flour,” they mean per batch. If you go to https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/RecipeDisplay?RID=1176819918996, you’ll see that they’re using about what we use when they develop recipes using their VWG product. So that should be set.

    I think your whole wheat plan will work nicely, let us know how it turns out! Jeff

  9. Jeff, thanks for responding so quickly!

    I’m afraid I’m still confused. The King Arthur recipe you link to uses 2 *tablespoons* for 2 3/4 cups of flour. You’re definitely right that they’re not using 1 tablespoon per cup (if so, they’d use 2 3/4 tbsp), but they’re using a lot more than the 1 *teaspoon* per cup recommended above. So are you still recommending 1 teaspoon per cup?

    thanks again. i’ll report back on how it works.

  10. Thanks Ben, you’ve opened my eyes to something really important, and it’s going into our second book. It’s true, that KAF recipe only has 2.75 cups of flour, but there are a lot of other dry grains in there, and none of them have ANY gluten, so this situation requires even more VWG. There is 1/2 cup of oats, 1/2 cup of barley, and 2 T of flaxseed. So that’s nearly 4 cups of dry ingredients, and that’s how we should say it… you need about 1 to 2 teaspoons of VWG for each cup of dry grain ingredient. In addition, that recipe has ground apples, which would also weigh down your dough. Using our rule of thumb (have a look, I’ve revised it; scroll up on this page), that would put is in the same range as the KAF recipe Jeff

  11. Jeff, thanks for clarifying.

    I made a loaf today and it came out great. I did just what I outlined above (master recipe w/ 1/3rd whole wheat, 2/3rds bread flour, 1 tbsp gluten, extra 1/3 C water), including about a 2 hour rise in the pan after the initial 2 hour rise. It came out a little short (it rose above the pan but just barely), so maybe a bit more rise time is called for?

    One other thing is that it came out a bit moist in the middle. It’s not terrible, but it’s not dry like you would expect. Does that mean I used too much water, or did I not cook it long enough? The crust was getting fairly dark so I didn’t want to cook it any longer than I did (30 minutes at 450 deg. F).

    Finally, I think that next time I might try mixing the dry ingredients separately before adding them to the wet. Since it’s not all one flour it might help evenly spread out the gluten and whole wheat flour.

    Thanks again!

  12. Great Ben. A little more rise time could definitely be in order.

    About the moist crumb… well, that’s our style. Moister dough stores better, and that’s the way the 5 min/day trick is done. You can experiment with a drier mix, but you may find that it doesn’t have as much storage life, which may not be a problem for you.

    Check the oven temp, if the outside is getting done too quick while the inside’s a little too wet, could be a too-hot oven.

    Good to hear things are working out though… Jeff

  13. Hi Jeff & Zoe, question for you. First though, am loving the book, and can’t wait for the second. Success with master recipe, many peasant loaves, and now, semi-success with the WW Sandwich bread, the Chris Kimball style.
    I say semi not because it didn’t taste great, but a rise problem. The room temp rise, 2 hrs, it rose spectacularly, popped it in the fridge and the next day made a loaf – the dough was 1/3 the size it had risen to. I shrugged it off because the other doughs had also flattened some in the fridge, but it didn’t hardly rise again in the oven after a rest of just about 1hr40. I should mention that this dough only ended up making me 2 loaves, so I bet I used a bit more than the 1&1/2lbs in my 1st loaf. The second loaf (maybe 3 days later) was even worse in the rise department, I wouldn’t even say it rose at all.
    What can I do next time?
    Thanks a lot for all your support here on the website, I enjoy the variations and technique tweaks you suggest very much!
    Lou Ann

  14. Hi Lou Ann, welcome to the site. Some questions before I try to suggest solutions:

    1. When you say “didn’t rise” do you mean that the finished loaf didn’t have much in the way of holes? Was it a super-dense hockey puck? Or did the slices show good hole structure and the density was appropriate to whole grain?

    2. What happened during the 1 hr 40 min rest time in the pan? Did it rise at that point?

    3. What kind of whole wheat flour are you using? Very roughly ground co-op brands sometimes don’t do well in stored-dough recipes and people end up switching to commercial brands.

    4. Have you checked your oven temperature? If it’s running cool, you won’t get as much oven spring.

    Keep in mind that with our method, we expect to get proportionally more rise from oven spring than from pre-oven rising. But if you’re not getting rise anywhere, and the result is too dense (non enough hole structure), then that’s a problem.

    Jeff

  15. Thanks for the quick reply!
    In response to your questions:
    I meant rise as in not much bigger than the dough I started with. But, now that I think about it, the finished loaf had very, very tiny holes, not quite ‘hockey puck’ but not too far from it. Eatable, not terribly enjoyable texture.
    The finished loaf was (in the second loaf’s case, especially) not significantly larger than the lump of dough that I used to shape the loaf. The first loaf was a bit higher and wider both pre and post oven, but I have become used to the pre-oven rising not really comparing to the size of the finished loaf in the other breads I made in the book.
    During the 1hr40 rise period, the first loaf gained a small amount of height and width in the pan. The second loaf, none. After baking, the second loaf barely touched the sides of the loaf pan, and was domed on the top but only gained maybe 1/2″ height in the oven. The first was a bit higher and wider, but not a very generous loaf.
    The flour I used was KAF 100% WW – for 2 cups. I then ran out, and used the KAF white whole wheat for the remaining 3/4 cup.
    Haven’t had my oven temp checked, but then again haven’t had any problems with the other loaves (and other baked goods) I’ve made recently. Should probably buy a thermometer and check it out.
    Thanks again
    Lou Ann

  16. It’s probably not the oven temp, based on what you said.

    KAF WW should certainly have worked in this recipe, Zoe tested hers that way (I tested with Gold Medal and a co-op organic brand).

    These are barely rising, which hasn’t happened to us before. Yeast mishap? (water too warm).

    If you really want a higher-rising whole wheat, add some vital wheat gluten; see our post on this (https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142). You may need a little more water if you use vital wheat gluten. Lots more in our second book (12/09, “Healthy Bread in Five Minutes a Day”)

  17. Well, I’ll just have to try again! I loved the sweeter flavor of the loaf.
    Would the bread have risen at the initial rise if the yeast got messed up?
    I do plan on trying the VWG; how much would you recommend in this recipe?

    Oh, on another topic – in another post a commenter suggested a graph of sorts to plot out the recipes in the book according to dough type – for example, if I have dough for peasant bread I can also make x,y,z recipes in the book. Anything of this sort upcoming? I find myself flipping through an awful lot when I want an idea for a new use for the dough.
    So thankful for the method, as well as the personalized help!
    Lou Ann

  18. Lou Ann: No, you’re right, it would not have. I’d try 2 tablespoons of VWG for starters, considering increasing to 4 depending on what you think of the result. You may need an extra quarter-cup of water with the VWG.

    We’re going to see what the publisher will let us do with graphics for the next book (deadline in 49 days). Thanks Lou Ann!

    Jeff

  19. funny- i’ve been having the same problem with the oatmeal bread like pat. it’s just too dense. i just told my husband that was it, i wasn’t making it again. maybe i’ll try one more time and proof it for a shorter time and double check that the wheat flour isn’t pastry four… i’m on the east coast, so altitude shouldn’t be an issue!

  20. Hi Zoe and Jeff,
    Happy New Year! Question –
    How would you recommend using white whole wheat flour in your recipes? Does it substitute like white flour or whole wheat – or something in between?

  21. It substitutes like whole wheat, not like white flour, and it absorbs water like whole wheat. The difference between white whole wheat and regular whole wheat is is in the flavor (milder), and color (lighter).

    If you try to substitute in for white you’ll end up with a dry dough.

    All this to be detailed in our 2nd book (12/09!). Jeff

  22. Zoe-thanks so much for the quick reply to my post on the other thread.

    I have two questions regarding 100% whole grain breads. 1st: is adding oil and milk vital to baking a mild-flavored, moist loaf? I’m not a fat-phobe, but my favorite bakery breads (aside from brioche) stuck to yeast (or sourdough starter), flour, water, and salt.

    2nd, When I bake the 100% WW sandwich loaf, the crumb has great flavor but the crust is very bitter. I’m using King Arthur White Whole Wheat, which is supposed to be less bitter than traditional whole wheat. Any idea what I could be doing wrong here? I’ve read that adding a little orange juice in place of water can help with this — is that true?

    Thanks!!

    Matt

  23. Matt: I don’t think the oil and milk are essential for 100%WW bread either. Sounds like you’re already onto our recipe for plain 100% WW… it will work beautifully with white WW (same measurements) and as you suggest, it will be less bitter.

    Orange juice will work fine, though I can’t promise it will solve your problem. Sweet juices help to crisp the crusts of WW breads. You may need to turn down the heat a bit or the sugar can scorch. Jeff

  24. Hi, I recently made the master recipe, but did tweak it some, it was incredible. Just thought I’d share my results.. I used 3 cups WW flour, 3 cups whole wheat all purpose and 1 cup Flax meal with 2 packets of yeast. The 2nd loaf turned out better, as i let it rise for 2.5 hours after refrigerating overnight. Thanks, I may never buy bread again! Cant wait for more whole grain recipes! Im going to try out the next batch with wheat gluten.

  25. Zoe or Jeff,

    I’m wanting to freeze some brioche dough and I know I read somewhere how best to do it, but of course I can’t find it now. Do I remember advice to spray the bag inside to keep it from sticking to it while defrosting, or did I dream that? Any help would be great. I’d rather use a bad than a container, but if that’s not good, I’ll do whatever I’m advised. It’s that too wet dough I made the other night and still didn’t get enough flour in, but it works fine as loaf bread.

  26. Check the challah recipe (page 180 in the book) or the brioche recipe (page 189). Talks about freezing in portion-sized containers, airtight for up to four weeks. Some have found the brioche gets dense beyond two weeks… I don’t use sprays but I’d imagine it might help a bit.

  27. Hi Jeff & Zoe,
    I’m trying to add flaxseed meal into my bread. I used the pain d epi recipe however my bread did not rise. It may be a combination of too hot of water at the beginning and too much flaxseed/whole wheat flour and I’m not getting rise out of my bread, even though the yeast appeared to be working well for the first 5 minutes when mixed in. Instead of throwing out the whole batch, is it possible for me to start a new batch and incorporate the existing mix that did not rise? If so, how is this best accomplished?

    I’m looking forward to the healthier bread book. I’m feeling your pain through the R&D process!

    thanks,
    Janine
    J

  28. Hi Janine,

    I think you are really going to enjoy our new book. I love our new recipe for a whole grain loaf with flax and spelt flour.

    In order to salvage what you have now you can add a bit more water and some more all purpose flour. It sounds like your dough is lacking gluten, which is why it seems to be so dense.

    If you think that your water was too hot and you may have killed the yeast, then you will need to start again.

    Good luck! Zoë

  29. I’ve had your book for over a year and I think the concept is great. I have made the European Peasant Bread recipe about 40 times and slightly vary the ingredients each time an have not been disappointed with the results. I have added a bit of wheat germ to the recipe, added roasted garlic, shredded vermont cheddar and have been very pleased. I usually reduce the amount of white flour from 5 1/2 cups to around 5 and feel the bread comes out with a nice texture. It is a really great recipe to “tinker” with, Thanks.

  30. the European Peasant Bread recipe is my favorite, too. It works well with “tinkering” – I have added millet seeds, sunflower seeds, wheat germ, flax meal, (not all at the same time!), interchanged white whole wheat and stone ground whole wheat, incorporated bits of old dough. I have found if the mixture is too dry I just finish the original mixing together using wet hands a couple of times and this seems to add enough additional moisture.

  31. I have been baking bread like crazy since I found your book in September. I have even gotten lots of family and friends hooked on your recipes! I have two questions:
    1. Your book mentions to only use a non-stick loaf pan. Do I have any other options than the teflon coated kind? My pan has flakes of teflon coming off today and I would rather purchase a safer replacement.

    2. Which recipe would be best suited to making soft(er) crusted rolls? I have tried several of the different recipes and end up with rocks instead of rolls. The loaves are wonderful, I just haven’t had luck trying to make smaller sizes.

    Thanks so much!

  32. Amy: Glad to hear that tinkering has worked for you. That’s exactly the way I develop new recipes… swap out what I want, then bring up the fluids so that the consistency is about what you get with the Master Recipe (page 26). With whole grains, it takes more water than when you use white flour.

    Megan: Our very-wet dough sticks to ordinary pans even when you grease them. One way to get around that is to cut a piece of parchment paper for the bottom of the pan, then grease the sides. So long as you can run a knife around the loaf, you can always get it out. It’s the bottom-sticking that wrecks things. Some people have said that enameled ceramic pans work better than un-coated metal ones; less sticking. I found that myself too. But those are really expensive.

    Any of the enriched doughs will give you the softer crust you’re wanting. Or, if you want to use a lean dough, just brush the rolls with any fat (butter or oil) before baking, and they’ll stay soft.

  33. I found your recipe in Mother Earth news and after trying it out I had to buy the book. I have been making bread for years but this is the easiest I have ever made. Have now been through boule,whole wheat, deli rye, limpa, oatmeal and am on my way to more. I like the way the small round loaves look and taste but my preference is to use half the recipe and put into bread pans. This way only the top is crisp but that is all right. It is delicious. I may never knead another loaf of bread.
    Peggy

  34. Thanks for the kind words Peggy. Yep, you can make them any size you like. Smaller loaves are easier to do using our method anyway, though once people get the hang of it, the large ones work well too (you need to increase the baking time, markedly).

  35. I absolutely LOVE your book! I caught it on NPR one long drive home one day and coincidentally, my husband in another town, was listening to the same show! We both came away thinking, we will be trying this soon! I was home first, so I beat him to it. I’ve made countless boules, experimenting with the tips from this site and fine tweaking it. I like the first-day soft, fluffy crumb of the young/new dough while my husband likes the denser crumb of the breads baked with the older doughs.
    Yesterday, I finally progressed to Whole Wheat, starting with the 100% Whole Wheat Sandwich. I baked it as a free form loaf with an overnight refrigerator rise.

    Wow it was delicious, soft, moist and sort-of cake like but so tasty! Nutty, slightly sweet. It’s a little crumblier than the boule but we like diversity!

    I made a little mistake, I preheated the oven at 475 thinking it was the same as the boule, and within five mins of sticking it in the oven, realized in horror my mistake. I quickly turned the dial down to 350 and baked it for 45 mins (free form loaf).

    The crust was crusty, a little chewy and harder than I’d like, most likely from having the oven preheated at 475. The crumb however, was delicious and moist. Relatively airy crumb for a whole wheat loaf (looks like pictures of what everyone’s getting).

    Am I getting it right? Is 45 mins a good time even at 350 degrees?

    Thanks!!

  36. Hi Amy,

    It depends on the size of the loaf. If you are baking a one pound free-form loaf then 45 minutes is probably just the right amount of time.

    You are right about the crust, if you started the loaf at 475, you will end up with a very thick crust.

    Thanks! Happy Baking, Zoë

  37. Hi, I’d like to add my congratulations on a wonderful book. Like many others, I couldn’t bake a decent loaf of bread before, but am now hooked! I have a few questions:
    – Even though we love the breads, the two of us don’t eat much of it, so I’d only like to make enough dough for one loaf at a time (the 100% ww). I’m not that great at fractions – do you have any pointers for how to figure that out?
    – I’d also like a slightly softer crust – more like a commercial sandwich bread. I haven’t been using the steam, which helps. Are there any other changes I could make, other than brushing it with Smart Balance?
    – When will we be able to pre-order the new book on Amazon??? 😀

    Thanks again for a wonderful book!

  38. Well, you’d kinda be defeating the purpose, but just divide the recipe by 4. Or 3 if you want a more generous loaf.

    Yep, brush some fat or oil on the top and you’ll be set.

    New book should be up for pre-order 6 weeks before publication date (12/09 we’re told), THanks so much!

  39. Two questions…As mentioned above,by brushing butter or oil on the bread for a softer crust, do you do that before you put it in the oven?

    You said in an earlier post that the pumpernickel dough (in the fridge) should only be kept for 8 days, not the usual 14. Why is that? And, what will happen if it is kept longer?

    I used the last of my pumpernickel dough today. It was 6 days old and there was some action going on, on the top – big bubbles and the dough looked like it may still be rising.

    It didn’t seem to matter, the bread was still wonderful.

  40. Nina: I brush onto crusts in this situation just before going into the oven.

    Pumpernickel tends to get over-dense if you keep it the full 14 days, but if you’re not finding that, go with the longer storage. Glad this recipe is working for you!

  41. Hi – I am still having tons of fun with the whole wheat recipes. Just thought I’d let you know that I found a website (sparkspeople – but there are others out there) where you can put in all the ingredients and it comes back with the nutritional info. I estimated 36 slices – that was the hard part since I’m not really sure how many I would get out of one dough recipe. But I’m sure it’s close. Also, I didn’t know how to convert the vital wheat gluten from grams to tablespoons so I omitted it. Anyway, it came back at 2.7 grams of fiber per serving for the 100% whole wheat. The lite whole wheat came back at 1.1 grams. Thought someone else out there might be interested. I can’t wait for your new book to be released!

    Regards,

    Suzan

  42. Its sparkpeople – not sparkspeaple (sorry for the goof). I also found out that grams and tablespoons are like apples and oranges and it depends on what’s in the spoon! So, I think VWG is similar to white sugar and I’m going to put that in and see what happens!

  43. HI there.

    I recently bought your book, and have tried it out a few times with little success, because use 100% whole wheat pastry flour (freshly ground). I kind of despaired on using your methods to make healthier bread, but after reading through all the comments here and other places on your blog, I am goign to give it a shot again, trying to reduce the water (for pastry flour) and adding vital wheat gluten. I am very happy to learn about your new book coming out, I am sure I will buy it right away. The method seems wonderful, it’s just we don’t eat non WW flour in my house. Thanks for answering all these questions, looking forward to more experimenting with the tips I’ve picked up tonight.

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