Q&A Dense or Gummy Crumb
Q: The crumb of my bread is dense, with small holes, and sometimes there are dense areas in the bottom half of the slices. How do I fix this?
A: First, be aware that our expectations for bread’s texture are shaped by our experience with commercial bread, a product that is made with dough conditioners and other additives that keep the loaves very soft. Homemade bread made from stored high-moisture dough is denser and more toothsome than commercial white bread. But there are several things that can help you to achieve a crumb with a more open hole structure:
1. For white-flour recipes, are you using something other than U.S. all-purpose flour? If so, check this page for water adjustments.
2. Make sure that your dough is not too wet or too dry, both extremes will result in a dense crumb. You can check to see if you are using the right amount of water for the type of flour you use (click here to check). And make sure you are measuring using the scoop-and-sweep method, click here for a video of that.
3. Be gentle! Once you determine that your dough is the right consistency then make sure you are handling it very gently. I find that people tend to want to knead the dough, even a little. This knocks the gas out of the dough and will give you a dense crumb. When shaping the dough be very careful to leave as much of the air bubbles in tact as possible. These bubbles will create the holes in the bread. We say to shape the dough for about 30-60 seconds, but we’ve come to think that even that is too long. Try getting it down to 2-40 seconds.
4. Try a longer rest after shaping: In my first book (Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day–2007), I opted for a very short rest time, usually 40 minutes for one-pound loaves made mostly with white flour. For most readers, that was enough to prevent dense results. But others found this to be a little dense, especially if your kitchen is cooler than 68 degrees. Try 60, or even 90 minutes for white-flour loaves, and see what you think. Whole grain loaves almost always need a 90 minute rest.
5. Longer-stored doughs may be best for flatbread: If you are using a dough that is close to 2 weeks old or older, you may want to stick to pizza, pita, naan or another option from the flat bread chapters in the books, or from my pizza and flatbread book. The yeast will not have its full power and if baked as a high loaf it may come out denser than you want.
6. Check your oven temperature: Use something like this thermometer on Amazon; if your oven’s off, you won’t get proper “oven spring” and the loaf can be dense.
The “refrigerator rise” trick is convenient and results in a nice open crumb:
It’s also super-convenient, allowing you to shape your dough and then have it rise in the refrigerator for 8 to 14 hours before baking. This is what you do:
1. If you want fresh dinnertime bread or rolls, then first thing in the morning cut off a piece of dough and shape it as normal. Place the dough on a sheet of parchment, loosely wrap with plastic and put it back in the refrigerator. If you want to bake first thing in the morning, shape and refrigerate at bedtime.
2. Eight to fourteen hours later, the loaves or rolls may have spread slightly, and may not seem to have risen at all. Don’t panic, they will still have great oven spring! Because you don’t handle the dough at all after the refrigerator rise the bubbles in the dough should still be intact. Preheat your oven with a stone on the middle rack to 475 degrees. When the oven is nice and hot take out your cold dough, slash it as normal and bake per recipe directions. Allow to cool and serve.
More in The New Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day, and my other books.
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You guys are amazing! You must be on your computers 24/7, offering help and support to your readers.
Anyway, I’ve also found that the overnight rise produces larger holes, but I have a question re baking temperature. This post says the cold dough should be baked at 475 for 30 minutes, but on other blogs you’ve said to bake as usual at 450. It makes sense to bake it hotter and/or longer because the dough will be refrigerator-cold. Which temperature should I use?
Thanks so much.
Hi Ann,
Thanks for noticing!!!! This is something I’ve been playing with a lot recently and the temperature change to 475 is a detail that I just added. I found it works really well, especially with the cold dough.
Everyone’s oven is slightly different and baking it at 450 works well too. But, I found the bread was better for me at 475 degrees.
Let me know what you think!
Zoë
A mere sixteen minutes from my post to your response. Now, THAT is impressive!
I’ve got a loaf in the fridge rising right now and I’ll bake it off late this afternoon at the higher temp and see how it goes.
This is even more fun than high school chemistry class!
Thanks, Zoe!
Hi Ann,
Being compared to high school chemistry is high compliment. I hope!!! 😉
Do let me know what you think.
Zoë
Hi, Zoë –
I baked a baguette and it would do you proud! Jagged and holey and beautiful. The dough was three days old.
From the same dough I baked a boule with the scallop cuts. That has a dense crumb. I like the dense crumb, frankly, but I was expecting it, too, to be more open and holey.
I’m still experimenting and find that my breads are nicer at 475° and one notch below the middle of the oven.
Hi Bubbles,
It is hard to get those big boules to have an open crumb, because there is so much dough and it compresses the bubbles. This is why I’ve come to the overnight or all day refrigerator rise. It seems to give that gas more time to form in a thicker loaf.
Yes, the 475 I think is going to be a good temperature for some ovens. I know some smaller ovens will have better results at 450.
We will all know our ovens well at the end of this experiment!
Congratulations on the gorgeous baguette!
Zoë
Thank you for the note about the open crumb, or lack thereof, in my boules. It is encouraging to know that the dough is probably acting as it should.
-Bubbles
Bubbles: Finally got to taste your jam and it is superb! Which frozen brand do you get at the farm stores in Door County when you go there? We do jam from the fresh ones we pick, but that gets complicated on vacation. Thanks again,
Jeff
The verdict is in. Baking the boules cold after an overnight rise at 475 is the bomb!
This method does produce larger holes with the coveted “custard crumb” (though the ones in the middle of the loaf are still a little smaller than I’d like) and a wonderful, crackling crust. The bread “sings” very loudly while cooling. The loaf has great oven spring—oven leap is more like it. And it’s so convenient. If baking first thing in the morning doesn’t work for you, you can shape the loaf in the a.m. and bake it when you get home from work. It couldn’t be easier.
The bread seemed to brown better and rise more at the 475 temperature.
This is definitely my way to go for baking boules from now on. I highly recommend that all your readers give it a try.
Ann: A lot of people are liking this approach– thanks for the feedback. About 450 versus 475, maybe your oven was running a tad cool?
Jeff
Hi Jeff and Zoe et all,
that “baking the boules cold after an overnight rise at 475” sounds awesome, and I want to try it. Can someone who’s done it tell me if the bread is refridgerated “naked” or draped, or covered in some way? It seems like it would lose moisture without it. Thanks, and thanks again to Jeff and Zoe for all your help and feedback on this site. It is an amazing resource for us addicts. 🙂
-Celene
I put a piece of plastic wrap kind of loosely over the loaf and set it on a piece of parchment paper. Then I put the loaf, parchment paper and all, on the baking stone. About halfway through baking time, I remove the parchment paper so the bottom crust can get crisp.
P.S. Needless to say, I remove the plastic before I put it in the oven!!
Ditto for me on the plastic; seems like you need it in the very dry refrigerator environment. Just remove the plastic but leave the parchment in place for baking.
Jeff
Okay, thanks, you two, for the answer. I am going to go for it this week.
-Celene
Thank you for writing this wonderful book! I love to spend my weekends making sourdough bread and messing with baker’s percentages and all that fun stuff, but if I want hot bread on the table during the week, this is the only way to go!
I like the idea of letting the shaped dough rest in the fridge all day while I’m at work. If I’m using the reduced yeast method (1/2 t.), will it still work, or will I need to let it rest at room temperature for awhile?
Thanks!
Kendra: to be honest, I haven’t tried it. My guess is that once the dough is fully risen that first time, it won’t matter. But please let us know how it turns out.
Jeff
Hi Jeff and Zoe,
I loved your class and came home a made my first bread in five dough.
On day one the boule was tight and dense. I suspect that my dough was too wet. I had substituted 1/2 c or rye and 1/2c of ww flour and with all of that put in too much water, I think.
After reading the above comments, on day 2 I made a loaf and allowed it too rise about 5 hours in the refrig–so much better. Next time I will try a longer cold time. However I would still like to have a bread that rises upward more. Is that possible?
Also, can I bake this same dough in a bread pan.
Anne
Hi Anne,
Yes, I love the refrigerated rise. I forgot to mention that trick at Barbara’s!
You can use the same method for a loaf pan as well. Just be sure to give it lots and lots of cold rise time before baking.
Thanks, Zoë
Has anybody tried the refrigerator rise for longer time, like around 20 hours or so? My schedule would let me make up the loaf at night, but I wouldn’t be able to bake until the following afternoon.
Hi Daryl,
The longest I’ve let it rise in the refrigerator is 14 hours with great success. Give it a try and see what you come up with.
Please report back and let us know how it goes!
Thanks, Zoë
Here’s my results after experimenting with a 22 hour rise in the refrigerator. I took boule dough, rolled it out, covered it with white onions sauteed with basil, oregano, garlic, and a pinch of jalapeno and rolled it back up. It then went into a loaf pan lined with parchment paper and into the frig for 22 hours. Baked for 28 minutes at 475. I didn’t get as much oven spring from this as I did from the same recipe allowed to rise for 2 hours on the counter, but I got a lot more of a rise from the refrigerator time so the loaf size was about the same. The bread tasted great. The only down side was that one end of the bread came out very noticeably flatter than the other, but it’s at least as likely to be human error or an odd fluke as anything to do with the refrigerator rise. Since the convenience was great and the flavor was good, it’s something I’d definitely do again.
Thanks Daryl. I’ve had similar experiences when I’ve overdone it on a rise. Most of the rising was already finished and there wasn’t all that much left over for oven spring. But what you’re saying suggests that it just doesn’t matter all that much. The recipe was designed to be very forgiving, with many paths to a decent loaf. Thanks so much for your input.
Jeff
Hi,
I just baked my first loaf, and it’s great ! I found the videos very helpful when it came time to shape the bread.How should I alter the resting time and baking time if I bake a 2 lb loaf?
Judy
Hi Judy,
You will want to increase the rest time before baking by about 30-40 minutes. You will also increase the baking time by about 10-15 minutes, depending on how high the loaf is.
Thanks, Zoë
Dear Jeff and Zoe:
I’ve been baking bread for more years than I feel obligated to divulge, LOL, and yours is the best by far, especially in the development of the open crumb. I’ve suggested and given this book to lots of my fellow bakers, all looking for a truly artisanal product in a fraction of the time and work of the usual techniques. We all agree: you rule.
One point: I’ve expanded upon your suggestion to NOT wash out the rising container from batch to batch, by always having on hand a (smallish) baseball-sized portion of the risen dough to use as a starter in my next double batch. Because of this, I use just 1 to 2 teaspoons of yeast for a double batch. This gives great results and takes no longer to rise.
Question: RE: Crumb too wet..
In my Miele oven, I bake the bread as you direct, THEN turn the oven off and let the bread remain in the oven for another 15 minutes. Still, the crumb is too damp. The flour type is correct and the hydration level has been played with, all with the same results.
Any suggestions would be appreciated and thank you in advance!
ValerieSara
Thanks for your comments Valerie! Many people have experimented with lower yeast levels (I have a post on it inside our website at https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=85). So that’s great.
If you’re finding our approach too damp with your particular flour and oven combination, just experiment with using a little more flour. Go slow, because if it starts to feel like traditional dough it won’t store well. Start with maybe an eighth cup of extra flour and see what you think. If it’s still too wet, go up another eighth-cup and let us know what happens. Jeff
Thanks Jeff. I’ll try that and let you know the outcome. I’m trying your Panettone this week and I’m pretty excited that your recipe is as easy as your breads. Panettone typically takes me three days to make and, although the various recipes I’ve tried are good, they don’t compare to the naturally leavened real deal. I have a feeling that yours is going to be just what the Doctor ordered, haha!
Thanks for your help and I’ll be in touch,
ValerieSara
Hi Valerie,
Do let us know how you like the Panettone. It is quite a bit easier and less time consuming than the traditional loaf and we’ve gotten great feedback. Let us know what you think!
Thanks, Zoë
Thanks Zoe.
I’m so looking forward to making it. The only change I may make is to substitute 1/2 tsp. Fiori di Sicilia for 1 tsp. combined of the lemon/vanilla extracts. It’s so traditional in Panettone, as I’m sure you know! I’ve tested many recipes and so far Carol Fields’ has the best flavor and Rose Levy Beranbaum’s has the best texture. Rose’s, however, is bland and not sweet enough and she could not help me correct this problem. The Panettones of such top tier bakers as Glezer and Reinhart’s are just too involved for home baking, and to be honest, still not quite right. Nick Malgieri’s needs a few more test loaves before I can decide where his stands. But it just should not be this difficult to get a great product, unless of course, you absolutely must leaven it naturally for the correct end result.
We are 100% Italian and I was blessed to have a mother, grandmother and in-laws (all from the old country) who instilled in me a love of cooking and baking (done daily, as we must eat every day), with no real shortcuts yet, somehow, done efortlessly. Still, as I recall, my dear mother’s Panettone was just not so involved and was just brilliant.
I was taught how to make beautiul treasures such as Taralli, Nacatoli(which are very rarely made in this country), Cucidati, Bomboloni, Cannoli Siciliana, Strufoli, Crostate, Gelati-the list goes on and on-but this, a proper Panettone, is a tough nut to crack!
I will keep you posted and I will be honest.
So nice to hear from you!
Valerie
Wow Valerie,
This is very exciting! Please keep me posted on how your experiment with the Panettone goes. I look forward to your critique and hopefully any suggestions you may come up with. In all honesty I’ve only had my own Panettone or the dried out version you get at bakeries that is never as satisfying to eat as it is to look at.
Your family history with food is so enviable. I hope you have kept good records of the recipes!
Thanks and I can’t wait to hear back.
Zoë
Thanks, Zoe, I’ve got all the recipes, most just from watching over the years and writing down as I watch. I’ve had so much fun and now we have four kids that really enjoy baking and cooking with me. One son especially, is incredible with yeast and homemade pasta/gnocci and also with improv baking and cooking. It comes from the heart-sometimes I really believe that you’ve either got it or you don’t.
I’m in the throws of a turmoil right now. This same son, Keith, is not able to have gluten of any sort, including yeast. No milk or sugar either. I’m trying to develop recipes with rye, oats baking soda/powder etc. The best I can come up with are a cross between soda bread and scones using olive oil. A tad heavy as you can imagine so I’m going to experiment with folding egg whites into the batters. It’s hopefully a temporary thing with him as Naturopathic Doctors are trying to determine the cause of this mysterious neurological condition causing “palinopsia” which has plagued him non-stop since he was 14-he’s now 23. We live in Boston and the fabulous traditional medical community that we have access to here, is stumped. Baking keeps us busy and wouldn’t it be great if bread-not-as-we-know-it turned out to be the answer to his battle!
I’ll be in touch. Thanks so much,
Valerie
Hi Valerie,
Your son is not alone in his inability to tolerate gluten and many other ingredients we all take for granted. Jeff and I are busy working on another manuscript that will include several recipes that speak to these issues. We have just begun, so there is nothing to share yet.
We should stay in touch and share information!
Be well and good luck!
Zoë
Thanks, Zoe. I appreciate your attention to this problem. Hopefully, Keith is not intolerant of gluten, sugar and other white stuff; they are just trying to rule out possiblilites at this point and “rebuild his brain” by keeping him off foods with a high glycemic index, I guess. I will keep you posted, especially in regards to the Panettone.
Thank you so much; talk to you soon.
Valerie
Good luck to all of you and please stay in touch!
Zoë
Hi Zoe,
I made the Panettone yesterday and chilled it 18 hours. I gently dough-hooked it (speed 2) in my KitchenAid Pro 600, just barely until it all came together.
The particulars:
I used King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour, Gold SAF-Instant Yeast, the eggs were size “large”, 1 tsp. Fiori di Sicilia replaced 1 tsp. of the vanilla, and the fruit was 1 cup golden raisins and 1 cup candied orange peel.
The dough rose beautifully after 2 hours. The chilled dough filled the King Arthur Panettone paper mold halfway and, again rose beautifully after 2 hours. After the egg wash, I slashed a cross in the dough although you didn’t instruct to do so, but I think it’s a Venial, maybe even a Mortal, Sin not to do so in an Italian household-so I went for it. I baked it, without a stone, until a wooden skewer came out clean and the internal termp read 210, about 65 minutes. The oven spring was fabulous and soon the bread was 2 inches over the top of the mold and the familiar and correct Panettone fragrance was filling the entire house. I let the bread cool on a rack, 6 hours before I cut into it, just moments ago. The taste is the best, just incredible. The texture is denser than what is the correct Panettone texture. When I pull a strand it does not have that beautiful tear/shred/strand that I’m desperately seeking. Still, over all, the signs point to potential great Panettone.
Next test I’m considering kneading it it the Pro 600 for the more usual 10 minutes to develop the strands that I’m looking for and perhaps letting the second rise go just before collapse.
This one is the closest to my Mom’s and if this works out, I will have cut my time involved by days. I’m hopeful.
What do you think might help me achive that perfect tear/texture?
Thanks so much, Zoe. This is getting very close to Panettone Nirvana.
Valerie
Hi Valerie,
How exciting! When we first wrote the book I mentioned that the texture of the brioche and other enriched doughs would be closer to the traditional loaf if the dough was kneaded. It is very difficult to develop the proper gluten structure in a dough that has so many eggs and butter added to it without kneading. That little hint was edited out, as not to confuse the issue for our readers who were not experienced bakers.
In other words I think you are exactly right! If you knead the dough for several minutes you will change the texture of the Panettone so that it is no longer cakey, but has the pull you want. Allowing it to rise longer will make it lighter in texture.
I’m so glad that you enjoyed the bread and hope that you will eventually create the one that you love!
Thanks, Zoë
Yes, awesome!
I’m going to whip up another batch today with the extra kneading and longer rise and then bake it tomorrow.
Last night with the remaining dough from batch #1, I took it from the fridge and gave it a good stirring with a wooden spoon, and then I gave it 2 buisness letter folds, then back in the fridge for an overnigt stay. I’ll bake that up later on today and let you know how the stir and fold tactic goes. This is so fun! Thanks Zoe!
Valerie
Hi Zoe!
RE: Batch #1…
Along with a cool-ish over-night rise in the paper molds, the “stir and fold” operation worked very nicely-we’re almost there!
I ran out of time yesterday, but this weekend I will tackle Batch #2 with the longer kneading and longer rises. I’m confident this will do the trick.
Thanks, Zoe, and you are becoming my Total Panettone Icon,
Valerie
Hi Valerie,
I can’t wait to hear about batch #2. I hope the extra kneading results in the crumb you desire!
Thanks, Zoë
Hi Zoe! Batch #2 is pretty much the same as #1. I baked it to an internal temp of 185F (instead of 210F) which I liked. But it’s dense, no doubt about it.
Just wondering, what do you think of maybe using buttermilk or yogurt as the liquid (or part of the liquid)? Do you think that may help?
Thanks for your help.
Valerie
Hi Valerie,
This was with the extra kneading? Hmmm? Buttermilk and yogurt both contain acid which may inhibit the gluten even more, which could make the bread tender but not stretchy like you want. But, it is certainly worth a try!
The other thing to try is letting the dough rest longer before baking.
Good luck and thanks for keeping me posted!
Zoë
Ok, then, a longer final rise is what I think you’re saying here. Let’s say the Panettone fills the paper mold half-way, would I let it rise just to the top of mold, for instance, or a bit over the top?
Thanks and I’m still sticking w/your recipe as it has the best taste!
Valerie
I just re-read your comment and it provoked me to think: how about the addition of Vital Gluten?
Hi Valerie,
Yes, let it rise to just above the paper mold and see if that does it.
I think the vital wheat gluten is a great idea to try!
Let me know how it goes!
Zoë
OK, we’ll give it another shot this coming week; haha, this one will rock! If you have time, and only if you have time, please let me know aprox. how much gluten to each cup flour.
Thanks, Valerie
Hi Valerie,
I would start with about 1 tablespoon of vital wheat gluten per one full recipe of Panettone. Mix it with the flour and then add it to the water.
Thanks for experimenting with this. It is great fun to hear about your trials. I hope this works!
Zoë
Wow, you’re fast-thank you!
I’m really excited about the wheat gluten and that’s why, when frieds ask me in utter disbelief, “How can you bake and cook every single day?”, I sort of pity them for not feeling the joy I feel when the people I love enjoy my feats. I’m not kidding, Zoe, when I tell you my baking and cooking are central to a happy family.
I’ll keep you posted! Valerie
Hi Valerie,
I can’t wait!
I feel the same way about food and cooking it.
Thanks, Zoë
Hello,
I’ve been trying my hand at baking the chocolate bread. The first time I baked it fresh and it didn’t cook all the way through. This time I refrigerated it over night, and when I took it out of the refrigerator it was hard and I was unable to shape it. Can you help?